韩岩导读

　　在这里介绍格林伯格对我来说是再自然不过了。因为他所创造的整合格式塔和以咨客为中心疗法的“以情感为焦点疗法”(Emotionally-focused Therapy)曾在我心理治疗实践的早期给予了很大的影响。
　

　　这里说一些我个人与这一流派相交的经历，也许有助于读者阅读本文。这得从我对格式塔疗法的兴趣谈起。在我上的大学的一个心理咨询课中，我选择了格式塔做我的焦点。我没有选择学院里最占统治地位的认知行为治疗（尽管后来这成了我早期训练中相当主要的一个部分），实在因为对于这大学四年不断的Cognitive over emotion即思想统治一切get enough，就是说烦了。我在想，如果让一个受中国传统教育的知识分子来到这悉尼的大学里学心理学，他一定会大惊失色：“这是在研究人吗？这是在研究 it 啊！”当然这后半句他一定说不出来，那是我明白了西方语言后说出来的。：）

　　他的惊异是：西方人之分化，将认知从体验整体中分化出来，将研究和实践分化开，将心理学和它的前身的人文学科之分化出来，已达到如此一个登峰造极的程度。这在悉尼的大学心理学系中可以窥一豹而见“现代性”的全身。你无法不叹其精深，但在那时候，我反正是烦了。我被格式塔创始者 Perls 深深吸引的是他的重视“现在和此地”当下整个体验的精神，还有他对精神分析的智力倾向的反叛。Perls 对这种智力倾向的批评在某些方面极为精彩：

他说：这种精神分析，你只是talk about，绕来绕去在表层未接触情感的那个层次绕，不断分析过去造成现在的原因，你走出来吧，直面眼下，一切过去必包含于当下之中，你的一个眼神，一个动作，你-到底-在-做-什-么？（这就是本译文提到的积极实验技术的雏形）。

　　Perls对精神分析的批评当然并不全面，所谓的解释技术自有其特定的价值，更何况今日之精神分析已经不是那个样了，但是，我想，那个时代的Perls此言无疑是革命性的，不乏为一种对特定西方阶层的过度智力倾向的解毒。还有反正我当时就是被这治疗方式迷住了。

　　这里头还有一层，它诱发了我历史的记忆，我想到了禅宗的棒喝，当下开悟，时而沉默时而答非所问。。。。。

　　然而另一个发现对于当时的我也是非常震撼的：Perls当时好象去过日本接触过禅宗，这“当下”强调可能与之有关。但如果你以为这和禅宗所走的是一个方向，那就大错特错了。禅宗也许要让你顿悟的是空性，Perls也罢，格林伯格也罢，却丝毫不贬低人的需要（有性？），恰恰相反，它的技术让你去掉文饰防御直逼你深层的需要。格林伯格的疗法在某些时候会让你努力去实现你的深层需要，而不是缩在恐惧的防御中。这一点，与大量东方的教育区分了开来。

　　然而并不是Perls的所有东西我当时都觉得对路。最觉歧异的是所谓的格式塔的祈祷词：

“我是我，你是你；我不是生活在这个世界上来实现你的期望，你也不是生活在这世界上来实现我的期望；如果我们相遇，那是好运气，如果不，那也没办法。”

　　一种很激进的个人主义。这也正是格林伯格所甚感他与Perls分歧的地方。在想到这一点时，我就会想到自体心理学Kohut的三种移情，这似乎是和我这东方人更加契合的地方。

　　写到这里，大家再读本文，恐怕就不难发现何以格林伯格深深吸引了我。

　　以上提到的是格式塔和格林伯格疗法的实践部分，在这里还要提到的是，格林伯格创立情感为焦点疗法之后，其理论构建的语言和方式却是接近了学院中认知心理学的概念，如情感基模的概念。这样它就被拉回了学院心理学的主流，有的心理学家刚刚接触情感为焦点疗法甚至会有种感觉：“这不是和认知疗法很象吗？”概念上如此，但操作起来，其实我以为还是两码事。

　　西方健康系统现在很流行一种说法：叫以证据为基础的疗法（Evident-based therapy），格林伯格的贡献在于它将格式塔和咨客为中心的东西拉进了这一类的疗法。

　　最后，我想提请诸位注意下本译文中的一段话：

“我们需要场域支持才能不断组织。我们所不断组织的总是内在与外在的综合。某个瞬间我所组织的自我是依赖于场域的。。。。在场域作用下，自我在人际边沿形成。”

　　关于这段定义，你能联想起到什么吗？

　　最后感谢楚云舒的翻译。本译文是访谈的上部分，还有一个下部分，请诸位静心等待。

　

Phil: Well, that brings up something. When I've run across your writing, your work, I keep encountering the term "experiential," and then sometimes you call it "experiential-process," and I've been curious at times, really trying to understand Gestalt, I've given myself with a passion to understanding that, and I come to your work and I say, "Hm. Is he just using another word for Gestalt, or how does he conceive of Gestalt. What is this?"
Phil: 这引出了一些东西。我在你的著述和作品中经常看到“体验”这个词，有时候你把它称为“体验－过程”；我曾经对”完形”非常有兴趣, 并试图了解它。 读了你的作品，我就想：“哦，他只不过在用另一个词指代完形吗？他是怎么看待“完形”的？体验指什么？”

Leslie: It might help me to understand if you can just tell me a little bit of your background in Gestalt, and then I'll be able to relate.
Leslie:  告诉我一点你在“完形”方面的背景，这会帮助我理解你提的问题。然后我再回答你。

Phil: Okay. Going way back, during the time you were moving into the Toronto area, I was in the San Francisco bay area, and I was in the Navy, working on the psych wards at Oakland Naval Hospital. I was exposed to Gestalt - they used Gestalt and transactional analysis on the units there - through some people who were doing training with Fritz Perls and Jim Simkin down at Esalen, who would bring back what they were learning and use it on the unit. I was young, and the impact was fairly significant. After the service, I went on to do other things; I was in the ministry but always had this experiential, existential flavor to everything that I did. Several years ago I got out of the ministry and enrolled in a Psy.D. program. I also started training in Gestalt with Maya Brand and Carol Swanson. Along with their training, they would bring in trainers from outside, mostly from Los Angeles, so I've been exposed to Todd Burley, Bob and Rita Resnick, Jan Ruckert, Lynn Jacobs, and in the process got involved with AAGT. I went to the conference in New Orleans, met Iris Fodor...
 Phil:好。你迁到多伦多的那段时间，我在旧金山海湾，在海军服役，在奥克兰海军医院的心理病房工作。我在那儿接触到完形疗法——他们用完形治疗和交互作用分析疗法——是一些在Esalen受过Fritz Perls 和Jim Simkin训练的人，他们把学到的东西带到医院里应用。那时我很年轻，这对我影响很大。服役之后，我改做其它一些事情：我在政府部门工，但我做的每件事都带有这体验性的、存在主义的风味。几年前我离开公职去读心理学博士，同时开始参加Maya Brand和Carol Swanson的完形培训。他们的培训经常外请一些培训者，主要从洛杉矶，所以我也接触过Todd Burley, Bob和Rita Resnick, Jan Ruckert, Lynn Jacobs,在此期间加入AAGT。我去过新奥尔良开会，在那里遇到Iris Fodor……

Leslie: Did we meet?
Leslie: 我们见过吗？

Phil: We met. We met at her workshop. As far as the theory goes, I have latched onto Bob Resnick's summary of it where he did that interview with Malcolm Parlett...The three main components are field, dialogue, and phenomenology.
Phil: 见过的。在她的工作坊见过。不管理论怎么发展，我还是牢记Bob Resnick会见Malcolm Parlett时做的总结……完形治疗最主要的三个成分是场域、对话和现象学。

Leslie: So, you had asked me what is this experiential label. And let me give you a sort of anecdotal answer. I went recently to this Gestalt writers' conference, and basically I put the following question to them, "Given that both Client-Centered and Gestalt therapy (and the humanistic therapies in general) have died in academia - I'm trying to revive them under the global title of experiential - and given that psychodynamic has many different sub-schools within it, how would people at this conference feel about being one of the schools under a broader label of experiential?" We had a discussion of that. I had a chapter I'd written, and at the time it was called "Experiential Psychotherapy: The Essence of Client-Centered, Gestalt, and Existential Approaches." In the discussion, people influenced me to call it "Experience-Centered Therapies: Gestalt, Client-Centered, and Existential."

Laura Rice introduced me to Gestalt psychotherapy theoretically. And I often joke that I'm one of the few people who probably learned about Gestalt therapy theoretically first. I read Perls, Hefferlein, and Goodman in a theories class, and I thought this was really interesting. I read Perls, and then I tried to seek out Gestalt trainers. So I really was introduced to it through books.

Then I found out there was a person in town by the name of Harvey Freedman, who was a psychiatrist, and he was running Gestalt therapy groups. I joined with Harvey Freedman; he worked in the Toronto General Hospital, and he ran groups, and I went into these groups for two or three years.

I was also in encounter groups at York University where people were coming up from Berkeley and doing things like that. I was training meanwhile as a counseling psychologist, seeing my own clients and so on.

Then Harvey Freedman was picked by Perls to run the Gestalt Institute of Canada on Vancouver Island. Harvey was getting ready to uproot here and go out there, and then Fritz died. The fallout of that was that Harvey Freedman started the Gestalt Institute of Toronto. He stayed there, and then I was part of the first group, the first-year training group, and I trained here for three years in a formalized training program. Different people came in: Laura Perls was one of the people, and a variety of others. So, I was exposed to a West Coast style of Gestalt Therapy, and I got my training there, but I always felt that they lacked a theory of relationship or any kind of view of empathy and therapeutic relationship. Meanwhile, I was getting a lot of that at my university training from a Rogerian perspective, and I remember like a critical thing at one point saying to Harvey, "You know you don't take the relationship and group process into account," and he said, "Show me where the relationship or group is." It was sort of a radical, phenomenological view, which was very "I" centered, and not "We" centered in any way. And so I always had this sort of theoretical divergence; I mean I was still very young, and it was all mixed up in my still trying to be recognized, but I always had this view that somehow this was a weakness in the practice of Gestalt therapy, and although the "I-Thou" relationship was said to be one of the legs, it wasn't really used or practiced in very strong terms. So I always saw it as a strong theoretical problem. Then I went to Vancouver eventually, because I got an academic job, otherwise I would have stayed here with the Gestalt Institute of Toronto.

I was always unhappy with the Perlsianism aspect of Gestalt therapy. 

Leslie:  你刚才问我“体验”是什么，我先说一件轶事。最近我去参加完形作家会议，问了他们一个问题：“既然在学术界人本治疗和完形治疗（以及所有人本主义取向的疗法）都已消亡，我打算让它们在“体验”的名字下复活；既然心理动力学有许多不同的小学派，那么在座诸位对归属于一个叫“体验派”之大类门派下会有何感受？”我们做了讨论。以前我有本书的一章叫“体验：人本、完形与存在主义治疗法的本质”。讨论之后，他们影响了我，标题改成了“体验中心治疗：完形、人本与存在主义”。

是Laura Rice引领我学了完形心理治疗理论。我经常开玩笑说我可能是少数先从理论上学习完形治疗的人之一。我在理论课上读了Perls, Hefferlein, 和Goodman，觉得很有趣。我是通过书籍进入完形治疗的。而后我发现镇上有位叫Harvey Freedman的精神病学家在做完形团体治疗；我就加入了。他在多伦多综合医院带团体，我跟了两三年。

我在约克大学也遇到来自Berkeley的人带领的类似的团体。那时我做为咨询心理学家接受训练，也看我自己的来访者。

之后Perls选中Harvey Freedman来掌管位于Vancouver岛的加拿大完形学院；Freedman都准备要去的时候，Perls死了。结果Harvey Freedman创立了多伦多完形学院；他留在了那里，我是第一年的训练团体——最早的团体的参与者之一，在那儿受了三年的正规训练。很多人到过那儿，包括Laura Perls还有其他人。这样我接触了完形治疗的西海岸风格；虽然在那儿接受训练，但我一直觉得他们缺少有关关系的理论或任何关于共情和治疗关系的见解。其间我在我大学的训练中从Rogerian的观点中学到了很多；我印象中一个关键事件是我对Harvey说：“你没有考虑关系和团体作用。”他的回答是： “告诉我关系或者团体在哪儿？”这是一种激进的现象学观点，非常以“我”为中心，而绝非以“我们”为中心。这样我总是与他们有一种理念分歧；当时我还非常年轻，试图被认可，但我一直有一种观点：这是完形治疗实践的薄弱处，尽管“我－你”关系被称为完形治疗的基柱之一，却没有真正应用。我一直把这看成重大的理念问题。最后我去了北美的Vancouver，因为在那里谋到一份学院工作，不然我会在多伦多完形学院待下去。

我总是对Perls式的完型疗法有种不满。

Phil: Which is what to you?
Phil: 你指得是什么？

Leslie: Well, I saw it as pathological notions of radical independence. And I was always much more, although it wasn't articulated at that time, interested in a model of relational interdependence.
Leslie: 我指的是病态的彻底独立概念。虽然那时我的想法还未整合成形，但我一直对独立-互持关系模型更有兴趣。

Phil: A sort of systems thing?
Phil: 是某种系统的东西吗？

Leslie: Well, no. I guess it's a difference between self-sufficiency and self-support. I saw a lot of people in Gestalt as trying to be or believing in self-sufficiency.
Leslie: 哦，不。我想自足和自我支持之间有差别。我在完形治疗中看到很多人试图达到或相信可以自足。

Phil: Sort of independent?
Phil: 是某种独立？

Leslie: Right, the radical independence. Which is exemplified in the Gestalt prayer. And I believe that we need other people, and that that's actually an important part of being human, and that interdependence, as opposed to independence or dependence, is very important. My connections are a part of who I am and are important in understanding who I am; I can't understand myself without understanding my connections. And I believe that's very much what Buber was saying.
Leslie: 对，彻底的独立。完形祈祷词中可以作为例证。我相信我们需要他人，这是作为人类的一个重要方面。独立互持，不同于独立或依赖，是非常重要的。我与他人的联结属于“我是谁”的一部分，对于理解“我是谁”也很重要；若不了解我的联结，就无法了解我自己。我相信这就是Buber所说的。

Phil: Would this be compatible with the idea of a constantly forming self?
Phil: 这跟不断形成自我的理念一致吗？

Leslie: Yes, absolutely, but so could a radical independence view be a constantly forming self.
Leslie:  当然，不过彻底的独立同样可以认为它也意味着“不断形成的自我”。

Phil: Okay
Phil: 好，我懂了。

Leslie: That could be totally self-forming, self-organizing. And part of my view is that we need field support in order to constantly organize. And that what we are organizing is always a synthesis of inner and outer. The self that I'm organizing at the moment is a function of the field. So it's highly compatible with the modern interpretations of Goodman, with Wheeler's and subsequent sort of interpretation, or clarification of Goodman - that the self is forming at the boundary as a function of the field.
Leslie: 那可是绝对的自我形成、自我组织。但我的部分观点是：我们需要场域支持才能不断组织。我们所不断组织的总是内在与外在的综合。某个瞬间我所组织的自我是依赖于场域的。这与Goodman的阐释、后来Wheeler的阐释乃至Goodman的澄清十分一致——在场域作用下， 自我在人际边沿形成。

Phil: You're talking about Gestalt Reconsidered?
Phil: 你在说《完形再思考》这本书？

Phil: Yes. It seems that you're saying there was a lot in Gestalt that was tied up in this radical independence, associated with the Perls' mystique, and also that didn't get at some of the things you were seeing in the Rogerian empathic attunement - the relationship. I find it interesting when you say that you didn't find the relationship in Gestalt as compared to Rogers, because for me, coming to Gestalt in the midst of a program which is highly cognitive, and also listening to Iris talk (it was the relationship which was the aspect of Gestalt which was attractive to her), I have found relational things in Gestalt through the dialogical.
Phil: 哦，你好像在说完形治疗被限死在这种激进的独立上，跟Perls的神秘魅力有关，缺乏你在Rogerian身上看到的和弦共情——关系。当你将完形治疗与 Rogers相比较，说，没有看到关系时，我觉得很有趣。因为我是从认知治疗项目中转到完形疗法来的，同时听Iris讲座（完形对她的吸引力就在于关系），我从完形治疗里看到了相似于关系的东西：那就是它的“对话”。

Leslie: Yes, but you see that dialogical has only formed in the last decade. So you see, that's my point, that now, in the last decade, Gestalt has really moved into its dialogical phase.
Leslie: 是的，不过你得知道“对话”是最近十年在完形流派圈子中形成的。在我看来，最近十年，完形治疗才进入对话阶段。

Phil: Would you say that that's been because there's been such cross-fertilization with Rogers?
Phil: 你认为这是由于Rogers与完形治疗的相互影响造成的吗？

Leslie: No. I think it's been because of cross-fertilization with Kohut and Stolorow. Lynn Jacobs has been very important, and Gary Yontef. And then, the influence of Kohut. I mean, the Gestalt therapists started reading Kohut in the '80s, and started picking up the notion of...I mean empathy was a dirty word to Fritz, and when I talked about empathy in the 70's in Gestalt it was regarded as bullshit. And so the modern Gestalt therapy is dialogical, but the Gestalt therapy that I grew up in was not.
Leslie: 不。我认为是由于Kohut 和Stolorow的影响。Lynn Jacobs和Gary Yontef也起了重要作用。完形治疗师80年代开始读Kohut，开始接纳共情的概念……Fritz对共情不屑一顾，70年代我在完形学院谈起共情被认为一派胡言。现在的完形治疗是对话式的了，但我当年学习时它还不是。

Phil: Well, that's helpful for me to know, but you're saying that Kohut is the link?
Phil: 哦，这帮我了解了你所说的，你是说Kohut是关键？

Leslie: Yes, and Stolorow also, because he's in L.A. I think Stolorow's had a strong influence on Lynn Jacobs. You see I met Lynn in the 80's and this was like a soul mate in Gestalt therapy, and I had read her dissertation. And with this I agreed, but this had not been put out as Gestalt therapy in the way that I had been trained in it, or learned it, or been exposed to it. I went out to Cooper Island after Fritz had died, and somebody was running that, and it was very sort of radical independence. We arrived by ferry on this island and stood around for an hour, and there was a truck off to the side and there was somebody sitting in the truck, and eventually, after an hour, we went up to this person and said, "Can you tell us the way to the Gestalt Institute?" And he was there to pick us up!
Leslie: 对，Stolorow也是，因为他在洛杉矶。我想Stolorow对Lynn Jacobs有很深的影响，我在80年代遇到Lynn，就像遇到完形治疗中灵魂上的伴侣，我当时已经读过她的论文。我赞成她的观点，但我当初在完形治疗中所受训练、所学、所遇不同于此。Fritz死后我去了库柏岛，那里有人主事，近似于某种彻底独立观点。我们乘船到岛上，站了1小时，旁边有辆卡车，有人坐在车里；最后过了1小时，我们走过去问那个人：“去完形学院怎么走？”才发现他是来接我们的！

Both: (laughter)
两人:（笑）。

Leslie: He'd been waiting for us to ask him. Now, that was radical independence.
Leslie: 他一直等着我们问他。这就是彻底独立。

Phil: Well, that certainly gets the idea across.
Phil:很形象。

Leslie: Yes. So, process-experiential is an attempt to integrate these different approaches.
Leslie: 所以历程－体验是整合这些理论的一种尝试。

Phil: Well, that clarifies the term "experiential," and you seemed to be talking at the Gestalt writer's conference about that, but what would you say is Gestalt? What is specifically Gestalt, today?
Phil: 你已经说清楚了“体验”，你在完形作家会议上也说到了，那么今天你认为完形是什么？具体是什么？

Leslie: Firstly, I'm disconnected now from the institute circuit, and I've just been doing my thing in academia, but I would see that Gestalt's field theory is an important meta-theoretical principle that defines it. And I actually see active experimentation and dialogue as the two components that make it Gestalt therapy. Client-Centered is lacking the active experimentation, having only empathy. And I'm trying to integrate the two, so I see Gestalt as having now both a dialogical and an experimental component and that's what makes it unique. I think its view of people working at the boundary to solve problems and satisfy needs is a unique perspective on human functioning.
Leslie:首先，我已经从完形学院出来了，我只不过在学术界做自己的事，不过我会认为完形的场域理论是界定完形的理论基础。我看到积极实验法和对话是完形治疗的两个主要成分。人本治疗缺少缺乏积极实验法，只有共情。我想整合这两者，我觉得完形治疗现在有对话也有积极实验法成分，这正是它的独特之处。我想它的人们在人际边界上解决问题、满足需求的人性观是对人类机能的一种独到之见。

Phil: I'm curious. I don't hear you bringing in the phenomenological, which to me is constructivist, a making meaning out of one's experience.
Phil: 我比较好奇，你没有提及现象学，它对我意味着从体验中建构意义。

Leslie: Yes, but that's because I see that as baseline. I see that as common to Client-Centered and to Gestalt. It's clearly a phenomenological therapy, but there are other phenomenological therapies. I think phenomenology is at its core. That's the experience, but what makes Gestalt different and unique from the other experiential therapies is the use of active experimentation, plus dialogue, and it's view of people at the boundary solving problems.
Leslie:我是没有说到现象学。因为我把它看作基础，它是人本治疗和完形治疗所共有的。完形是现象学治疗，此外也还有其他的现象学疗法。现象学在完型疗法的核心, 这就是说体验是核心,  但使得完形治疗有别于其他现象学疗法的是积极实验法的应用，加上对话，和人们在边界上解决问题的观点。

Phil: Hm. We talked a little of this previously, but one of the criticisms I hear of Gestalt is that it doesn't have a developmental theory, a theory of self. Do you see that as a viable criticism?
Phil: 哦，我们之前谈了一点这个。我听到的对完形治疗的批评之一是它没有心理发展理论, 没有自我理论，你觉得这样的批评站得住脚吗？

Leslie: I am not impressed with the criticism that it doesn't have a developmental theory.. I mean, it doesn't, but I don't think psychotherapies really can adequately have developmental theories; I think they should be theories of functioning and theories of practice, not theories of development. I think that's a paper game.

Leslie:我对没有发展理论的批评不太在意。我是说我不认为心理治疗可以有完整的发展理论，心理治疗应当有功能理论、实践理论，但不是发展理论。这是文字游戏。

Phil: (laughter)
Phil: (笑)

Leslie: I think there's a whole discipline of developmental psychology, whose business it is to study development, and we can use that to inform psychotherapy, but because psychoanalysts happened to invent developmental things from listening to people I don't think that's a necessity. Clearly, that's a common criticism of Gestalt, but I don't think people sitting around doing psychotherapy can make developmental theories that are worth anything. Now, this issue of a self I think is different. I think having a more adequate self theory is important.
Leslie:在我看来发展心理学是研究人类发展的一门完整的学科，可以把它的研究成果用到心理治疗中来，但仅凭精神分析师从病人那儿偶然听到的东西来创立发展观，我觉得没这个必要。缺少发展观是对完形治疗的常见的批评，不过我不认为心理治疗师可以创建有价值的发展理论。但说到自我就不同了，我想有更为适合的自我理论是非常重要的。

Phil: In what way?
Phil:通过什么途径？

Leslie: Well, I think what Rogers did, that Perls never did, was Rogers' attempt to be a systematic theorizer, and that made the theory open to both testing and refutation. I think Gestalt never had a systematic theory, and that's one of its problems. I think trying to develop systematic theory leads to potential advances, even if only in the refutation of the theory. So I think having a more explicit theory, rather than an intuitive theory, is very important.

Leslie: Well, I teach at York University in Toronto, and I'm developing a sort of integrative, what I feel is an integrative package of Gestalt and Client-Centered therapy, and I see the two as merging more and more. I see a growing interest in empathy in Gestalt therapy, and in part of what's Client-Centered therapy there is an experiential therapy which I feel is quite similar to Gestalt, so I've trained in both approaches. I've always had some sort of view that they're quite compatible. I'm currently working on that - an attempt to empirically validate the experiential therapies so that they become legitimate again in academic circles. I've recently completed a study of Gestalt and Client-Centered combination on a depressed population, a clinically depressed population, and demonstrated that these processes are as effective as cognitive behavioral therapy or interpersonal therapy.

Leslie: Rogers已经做了，而Perls没有，Rogers尝试建立理论体系，这使得他的理论可以检测也可以证伪。完形治疗从来没有系统的理论，这是它的问题之一。我相信建立系统理论、哪怕单是对理论进行反驳都可以引至潜在的进步。所以我认为有更明确的理论而非仅有直觉性理念，这很重要。

Leslie: 我在多伦多的约克大学任教，正在发展一种综合的治疗，我认为是完形与人本治疗的整合，我看到这两种疗法在不断地融合。我受过两种治疗的训练，看到完形治疗中的共情在不断发展，人本治疗中的体验治疗部分也与完形治疗相似。我一直觉得它们可以相容。我正在试着验证体验治疗，以便让它为学术理论界认可。我最近完成了一项对临床抑郁者的研究，证实完形治疗与人本治疗的合并使用跟认知行为治疗或人际治疗一样有效。

Phil: Do you find other people picking up this line of interest and also pursuing the empirical validation of the experiential approach?
Phil:有其他人有跟你类似的兴趣、在验证体验疗法吗？

Leslie: No, but I'm trying to generate a group of people doing it. I'm working with someone at the University of Toledo in Ohio, Robert Elliott, and he's doing this as well. Then I have a colleague who's an ex-student, Sandra Pavio, and prior to doing the depression study, I had done another study funded by the Canadian Social Science Council on the treatment of unfinished business. We actually advertised for treatment of unfinished business, and in it we got a number of people who had been abused, and Sandra Paivio now is carrying out an empirically-based treatment of what she calls "childhood maltreatment," and she's attempting to replicate our unfinished business study findings. The predominant emphasis is on unfinished business, empty-chair dialogue, within an empathic, relational context.

Clearly, my form of Gestalt has emphasized the actual experimental, the use of Gestalt experimentation, and the standard, what I came to define as two-chair and empty-chair dialogues, because these are easily empirically studied. So, I've come to emphasize those although my own practice extends beyond that, but in terms of empirical work I've focused on these processes.

Leslie: 没有，我正在尝试召集一些人来做这件事。我在跟美国Ohio的Toledo大学的Robert Elliott合作。还有一位同事Sandra Pavio，是个交换学生；在抑郁者研究之前我还做过治疗有未完成心结者的研究，是由加拿大社会科学委员会资助的。我们为之做了广告征集志愿被试，找到了不少受过虐待的人。现在Sandra Paivio在做有实证验证基础的治疗，她称之为“童年受虐”，她想复制我们在未完成心结研究中的发现。强调的重点是共情关系情境下的未完成和空椅对话。

我的形式的完形治疗强调积极实验、用完形治疗法中的积极实验技术。这些积极实验法的标准就是我定义的双椅和空椅对话，这些技术用实证研究来验证是很容易做的。尽管我的具体应用的技术远多于双椅和空椅技术，但我的研究集中在这些技术。

Phil: What got you going in the study of psychology and psychotherapy?
Phil:是什么使你进入心理学和心理治疗的研究？

Leslie: Well, it's important to know that I'm an engineer first, and I have a master's degree in engineering. I'm also sort of a political refugee from South Africa.
Leslie: 我最开始是个工程师，有工程硕士学位，我还是从南非过来的政治避难者。

Phil: When?
Phil:什么时候？

Leslie: I came in 1968 to Canada, and I came and did a master's degree in engineering, but I came to Canada as kind of an aside, because a professor of mine came to a Canadian university, and so I followed him, to come here for a year, and I intended to go to England or to the States, but I was very politically involved in South Africa in fighting against the government in student politics, which was anti-government politics. I was searching for a way out of engineering; I was much more involved in political things. Then I came here, and it was the middle of the sixties, and I was quite involved in that whole experience, and the sort of drug experience, and my wife was in psychology. She had an undergraduate psychology degree, and she was working as a psychometrist.
Leslie: 我1968年到加拿大，读工程硕士，但我是作为旁听者过来，因为我的一位教授到加拿大大学，我追随他而来，待了一年，我想去英国或美国，但我在南非涉入了政治，在持反政府政见的学生运动中抗争政府。当时想找一条路脱离工程；我在政治上卷入太深了。然后我到了这儿，那是60年代中期，那段经历我很投入，包括某种吸食药品经验；我妻子是心理学背景。她有心理学学士学位，在做心理测试工作。

Phil: Did you meet her in Canada?
Phil:你是在加拿大遇到她的吗？

Leslie: No. We came married. I got married when I was twenty-two in South Africa. Both of us were sort of involved in political issues there, and then we came here. Basically, as an engineer I had read a lot of existential philosophies; I read Sartre, Camus and so on, and was very involved in those kinds of things. I had a number of friends who were all jazz musicians; I didn't actually play an instrument, and we would tape record these sessions, and write poetry and paint and do all kinds of crazy things. But I was an engineer and these two things were not exactly highly compatible.
Leslie: 不是。我22岁还在南非时结的婚。我们俩在那儿都涉入政治，然后一起来这儿。在做工程师时我就读了很多存在主义哲学的书，我读Sartre, Camus，等等，对此十分着迷。我有一群爵士乐师的朋友，我们一起玩爵士乐；我不是真的奏乐，我们会录下这些场景，写诗、画画、做各种疯狂的事情。不过我是个工程师，跟这些疯狂很不谐调。

Phil: (laughing) No.
Phil:（笑）不协调。

Leslie: But I came from a family which had a lot of external stresses. My father had a lot of financial problems, and so I identified as quite an outsider. My father went bankrupt, and the family went through a lot of crisis in that way. But internally my family was relatively functional, or supportive of me anyhow. I was the high-functioning child, but I was very rebellious as a child.
Leslie: 我生长的家庭有很多外部压力。我父亲有许多经济问题，所以我以为我自己属于安静和外来者那一类。父亲破产后家里遭遇了许多危机。不过我家相对说来还是正常运作的， 对我还是很支持的。我是那种高度发挥功能的孩子， 但很反叛。

Phil: How many kids in your family?
Phil:你家里兄弟几个？

Leslie: I had a sister three years older than me. So I was the baby, and I was a very spoiled child as well. And I had a Jewish mother - very food centered, and I've always been overweight. Food was medium of lots of things, but generally, emotional climate was relatively good.
Leslie: 有一个大我3岁的姐姐。我最小，被宠坏了。妈妈是犹太人，极重视食物，我总是超重。在我家里食品是很多事物的调剂，不过总的来说，感情氛围还是相对较好的。

Phil: So, you came to Canada, and was it your wife's involvement in psychology? I mean, where was the switch?
Phil:那么，你来加拿大，是由于你妻子潜心心理学吗？我是说转折点在哪里？

Leslie: It was really the loss of the political cause in South Africa. I was searching for something more relevant. We identified with the American situation as soon as we came here, and there were a lot of American draft dodgers, and we could sort of identify a lot more with the political strife going on in the States around Viet Nam - the counter-cultural revolution. The problem was that I did very well in school in engineering, in mathematics, and physics and so on, and so I was always being lead by my achievements, but those were in conflict with my interests. I'd had this crisis earlier in South Africa, in that I didn't really like engineering but I threw myself into politics and I was quite active in student leadership and working with people, so finally when I came here, having now left behind my family and the social context, I felt more free to just break out and do whatever I wanted. My wife was doing psychology and then I met a number of people who were students in psychology, and I just got to learn more about it.

In South Africa becoming a psychologist, in my eyes anyhow, wasn't really a viable thing to do. It wasn't a profession or anything like that. When I came here, it looked more viable. And I hadn't ever wanted to be a medical doctor, but that was the thing. All the jazz musician friends of mine ended up as psychiatrists; they all got MD's, and they dropped out of medical school and they came back, and they ended up as psychiatrists. One is now in London and one is in Australia. But I never wanted to do medicine, so when I came here, psychology seemed viable; everyone was wanting to do psychology and so I made the shift there, sort of influenced by exposure to what my wife was doing, our friends...

It's a very interesting story. I had decided to drop out and go to India for a year, and my wife, we were both going to go. That was sort of a done thing then, with the Beatles, I think.
Leslie: 是南非的政治原因造成的损失。我在寻找一些更相关的事情。我们一到这儿就觉得跟美国情形相似，有很多美国式的花招诡计，我们更倾向于美国的反对越战争、反文化的大革命。我的问题是我在学校里极其擅长工程、数学、物理等等，这些成就让我放不下，可是又跟我的兴趣不合。之前在南非我就有这个冲突，我并不喜欢工程，投入了政治、对领导学生和与人合作十分积极，所以最后当我来到这儿，远离家庭和社会环境，我觉得要突破限制做任何我想做的事都更为自由。我妻子在学心理学，而后我认识了很多心理学的学生，想对此学习更多。

在我看来，要在南非做心理学家不太可行。那不是一项职业。到这儿这后，似乎做心理学家的可能性大了。我从没想过做医生。我所有的爵士乐师朋友最后都做了精神病医师，他们都有硕士学位，从医学院退学后来又回去，最终成为精神病学家。所以我到这儿后，做心理学家成为可能。周围每个人都想从事心理学，我转了行，可以说部分受我妻子和朋友所从事行业的影响……

这是很有趣的故事。我曾经决定要放弃，跟妻子一起去印度一年。我想，那真是某种注定不行的决定，跟甲壳虫乐队一样。

Phil: Right, right. Was that the connection, the reason to go to India?
Phil:是啊。那种联结是去印度的原因吗？

Leslie: Well, it was just sort of one of the things that people were doing at that time. It was sort of seeking the spiritual, I think; I don't know if the Beatles had gone yet, it wasn't a specific thing, but that was one of the things to do.

So, it was in August and a friend of mine, a colleague of mine said he was coming up to York University in Toronto. I was outside of Toronto at another engineering university, and he was coming up to York to use the computer. I had heard that there was a woman here, whose name was Laura Rice, and that she was a student of Carl Rogers. And she believed that curiosity was important, and that people in therapy were motivated by curiosity to explore themselves. I don't know if you know this, but a lot of behaviorists had come from South Africa, people like Lazarus and Wolpe and a lot of behavioral therapists, and so the University of South Africa where my wife trained was highly behavioral, and I had read a fair bit on my own, and I thought behaviorism was silly, and...

Leslie: 这只是那时人们所做的事情之一。我想，是寻找精神寄托。我那时不知道甲壳虫乐队已经不在了，其实没什么特别的，只是那时做的事情之一。
到8月份我一个朋友和同事说他要去多伦多的约克大学。我在多伦多以外的另一所工程院校，他则要去约克大学。我听说那儿有位Laura Rice女士，Carl Rogers的学生，她认为好奇心十分重要，治疗中应激发起来访者探索自我的好奇。我不知道你是否清楚，许多行为主义者像Lazarus、Wolpe等从南非过来，我妻子在南非读过的大学是高度的行为主义化，我自己也读了很多，我觉得行为主义很愚蠢……

Phil: (laughing)
Phil:（笑）

Leslie: ...and psychoanalysis was sort of much too dark, and sort of pathological in its view, and it didn't appeal to me, the whole unconscious motivation perspective, and it seemed all so dark, so I was reading existentialism and I believed in choice and awareness, so I went to talk with this woman here at York University who all I knew about was that she thought curiosity was important.

Now my going to India was based on the fact that also from an English educational system I thought I 'd have to start all over again - start a BA in year one. I was just completing my masters, and I said I would drop out and come back and re-enter and study psychology; I'd sort of gotten that far. I'd called up a university and they said I'd have to do X number of years and so on to get a psychology degree.

So I came and I knocked on this woman's door, and it was about the 15th of August, and twenty days later I was enrolled in the graduate program at York University.

Leslie: ……而精神分析太只注重人的阴暗，是病理学的观点，整个无意识动机的学说我都不喜欢，太阴暗了，所以我读存在主义的书，相信意识和选择，于是我去约克大学见Laura Rice女士，而我所知道的全部就是她认为好奇心很重要。

Phil: What did she do?
Phil:她做什么？

Leslie: Well, actually that was a bit of an exaggeration; I was enrolled in a make-up year for a graduate program and subject to my completing the make-up year I'd go straight into a Ph.D. cuzz I already had a master's. And it was really interesting, because it was a new school that had just started and it was very open and they had a number of professors who had come from Berkeley and a number from the University of Chicago, where Laura Rice had come from. There was a model from some other university, I think it was the University of Illinois, which was actually a very hard-nosed psychology department then; they took people in with masters' from the hard sciences. Somehow there was a combination of factors; the director of graduate studies had come from Illinois, and there were a number of these more radical professors, and they thought, "Oh well," and if I wanted to go into psychology, that would be acceptable. It was driven by the fact that I had very good grades and a very good academic record and so on. So, totally serendipitously, I mean by following the regular channels they had told me that I'd have to do a number of make-up years, and I'd decided that I'd drop out, and I just went and knocked on this woman's door. And somehow within ten days my life was changed.

Leslie: 说来有点夸张；我注册补修一年研究生课程以便之后直接读博士，因为我已经有硕士学位。有趣的是，那是一所新学校，很开放，有许多教授来自 Berkeley，也有来自芝加哥大学，Laura Rice就来自那里。他们用了其他大学的一个模式，我想是Illinois大学，那儿的心理系很讲求实际，接受有理工科硕士学位的学生。这些加起来：研究所的主管来自Illinois，那里还有一些更激进的教授，如果我想进心理系，应该会被接受的。我的学业成绩很好。很意外的，他们通知我要补修几年，那我就决定放弃了。于是我只是去探访Laura Rice女士，不想10天之内我的命运就变了。

Phil: Well, two things intrigued me. One is that you must have gone through a really big decision-making process to conceive of having to start all over again, but to be willing to do that...
Phil:有两件事让我很感兴趣。一件是你需要做出重大决定来重新开始，而你很愿意如此……

Leslie: Yes...
Leslie: 对……

Phil: ...and then on the other hand this thing about choice and actually meeting and talking with Laura - I'm intrigued by what happened in that interaction with her; it seems rather magical.
Phil: ……关于这决定的另一方面是会见Laura女士——你见她时发生了什么，好像很神奇。

Leslie: Yes, yes. Well, she told me later she was trying to figure out if I was one of these flaky engineers that had been smoking a lot of dope...
Leslie: 是的。她说她想弄清我是不是那些吸麻醉香烟的古怪的工程师之一……

Both: (laughter)
Both:（笑）

Leslie: ...or whether I was substantially intellectual. I had strong mathematical skills, and she was a psychotherapy process researcher. She had worked with Rogers, who had developed process research, and she had developed a vocal quality scale, where you could actually listen to people's voices, both client and therapist, and she was trying to track the moment-by-moment influence of people's vocal quality or particular kinds of therapist actions on client vocal quality, and a few other variables. What you need in there is to track something in a statistical manner, moment by moment, which was called stochastic processes. Sort of, what's the probability if I do this, that you will, in the next moment, do that? That kind of thing. I had a strong mathematical background, and she saw the possibility of me working on that. She had just come up to York University from the University of Chicago, and she was a new professor starting the counseling and development program, and I went in saying, "I really like working with people, and I think I'm good with people. I don't really know much about sick people, so I don't want to go into clinical...counseling sounds right." It was because I had a very strong academic record, and they decided that they would take me. You know, that was the interaction, the combination that I fit into a vision that she had of something that she wanted to do.

Leslie: ……或者我是不是够聪明。我数学很好，而她研究心理治疗过程。Rogers做了过程研究，她跟Rogers一起工作过，她做音质测量，你可以听治疗师和来访者的声音，她试图跟踪双方音质的瞬间互动、或者治疗师具体行为对来访者音质的影响、以及其他类似变量。需要做的是用统计学方法时时刻刻记录随机过程。类似于，如果我这样做，那么下一刻你那样做的可能性多大？就是这种。我数学背景很强，她看中我可以做这件事。她刚从芝加哥大学到约克，是刚开始做咨询和发展研究的新教授，于是我说：“我喜欢跟人打交道，也擅长打交道。我对病人所知不多，我不想进临床领域……咨询听起来更好。”由于我的学术背景好，他们决定要我。靠那次交流，我进入她想做的事的视野。

Phil: So, it was the sense that you had an opportunity, that there was a place for you there, that there was an open door.
Phil:你感觉你得到了一个机会，有了一个给你的位置，一扇门打开了。

Leslie: Right. And so I just grabbed it, ya know. And it was amazing, because one of the things I say in retrospect, if I'd gone to the majority of other schools in North America at the time, I would have probably not flourished or I'd have found it incompatible. You know, all I knew was that she thought curiosity was important. Many schools were still behavioral or analytic and I wouldn't have fit into either of those, but I found a place that was highly humanisticly oriented, and she was highly humanisticly oriented.
Leslie: 对。我抓住了机会。真令人惊讶，回头来看，如果我当时去了北美的其它学校，我不会有后来的发展，可能很快发现不合适。而我所知道的一切不过是她认为好奇心很重要。当时很多学校仍是行为主义的或分析导向的，那对我都不合适，但我居然找到了一个高度人本取向的地方，她是高度人本取向的。

Phil: I notice you're still there.
Phil:而且到现在你仍然在这里。

Leslie: Yes; I left for twelve years, and I taught at UBC, in Vancouver. And then I came back, and in some ways I actually took her position after she retired.
Leslie: 对；我离开过12年，在Vancouver的UBC任教，然后回来。可以说在她退休后我接替了她的位置。

Phil: And would you characterize the program in which you teach now as continuing those humanistic, experiential lines?
Phil:你会认为你现在讲授的课程在延续人本、体验之路吗？

Leslie: I'm instrumental now in defining it as integrative. But that's because we believe it's important that students get an exposure to psychodynamic and cognitive. But the core of the program is still humanistic. It's not called that; it's difficult to survive in academia now as a humanist.
Leslie: 我谨慎地把它定义为综合。因为我们认为接触心理动力和认知对学生很重要。不过这课程的核心是人本的。只不过不叫这个名字，现在的学术环境下单纯的人本主义者难以生存
我也相当同意情绪聚焦疗法在相当程度上更多类似于格式塔疗法的观点，虽然他也有以来访者为中心疗法等等成分整合。

补充

我之前再没有知道格林伯格早期曾经接受格式塔疗法之前而阅读他的著作前，从我对于英国90年代格式塔疗法学者（Petruska Clarkson等人）的教材和作品阅读经验的积累来体会，我主观上已经觉得格林伯格的情绪聚焦疗法本质上还是相当格式塔疗法的。不过他在加入关系于治疗方面的确有发展，我好象还阅读到格林伯格使用客体关系理论和格式塔疗法整合，尝试治疗边缘性人格障碍的研究报告。这家伙挺有想法的。

他的强处似乎还在于将格式塔疗法整合了其他一些疗法经验后，安放在一个学院派心理学的认知研究和情感研究的证据基础上。

提供一个格式塔（完形）疗法的几个知识点：（根据Petruska Clarkson的作品）

格式塔疗法的创始人是谁?

皮尔斯.

它的理论基础有三个,那是什么?

现象学、存在主义、整体论。

格式塔疗法和格式塔心理学是不是一回事情?

不同.格式塔理论更多是当代认知心理学的前身.
格式塔疗法只是运用了其整体和完形的观点.

格式塔的治疗过程?

格式塔治疗的完形虽然有各种说法,但我们可以从四个接触的角度来讨论.
前接触:觉察问题事件.
接触:事件或情结的完形
接触后:完形后之平静
后接触:生活.
 
每个格式塔的完形是被置于一个背景中展开的.就如同我们这里先提出问题（前接触:觉察问题事件），问题的学习和解释,在问题的被回答的程度可以视作一次完形（接触:事件或情结的完形），然后了解者就获得该知识完形后的平静（接触后:完形后之平静），最后是一种介入实际的运用的过程（后接触:生活）........
而每次格式塔的面谈咨询都是一次小的完形,而各种小的完形阶段最后统一成功一个大的完形.
 
还有它的一些主要技术?尽管真正的格式塔疗法对于技术是不赞同的.

主要技术有
1、对话练习。
2、空椅子技术。
3、绕圈子。
4、我负责。
5、投射。
6、倒转。
7、预演。
8、夸张。
9、感觉留置。
10、完形梦境治疗

这些技术是格式塔治疗中经常运用于实验的,特别是空椅子技术。但真正的格式塔治疗师往往会超越教条主义而更有原创精神.

例如一个格式塔治疗师可能会要求一个暴食症的人,以后可以继续放开吃.但去实验每吃一口必须嚼一百次.以帮助来访者完成暴食中吃这个动作的格式塔(完形).

但同时,如果一个人教条主义的使用以上吃一口必须嚼一百次的方法实验,而不根据实际情况,执着这样的教条方法,那就被认为违背格式塔的治疗原则.

其实格式塔疗法的实验方法,也就是技术还有多多.但那些是次要的.如果过分去执着技术并津津乐道于那些游戏性项目而忘记格式塔真正的任务,那就可能是不专业和有伤害性的.